Posts by not a captive

14

DEBATE: Reliability of BIBLE TRUTH

by Terry in

this is the very end of a compelling debate.

if it grabs you go back and watch the whole thing.. .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzxkqz8xx1e&feature=related.

not a captive

The problem with the reliability of Bible Truth is there is always a theologian around to dictate what the Truth is.

It is hard to hold on to faith if we believe that "taking in knowledge of you, the only true God" is the same as "to know you, the only true God".

Foxe's Book of Martyrs is replete with stories of ones who believe that right doctrine produces right understanding--and enforce it.

That said, I haven't had a chance to see the video before work today--I only got to look at the comments.

Thanks for the conversation. Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Mindmelda and MadJ, My slow process of response missed/skipped MadJ's last comment. But when I finally entered my last remark on this day's post I see that we are all talking about what death can mean in various situations.

Your comment, mindmelda, which says that Jesus didn't die completely (do I understand you?) because he lived again in heaven. That is handy for us and not a critical loss for Jesus. But there was a reason that he sweat blood in the Garden.

Your comment about the personal fondness you have for you own body is not misplaced. Certainly Jesus must have enjoyed the interface of his own body with the surrounding environment. He apparently knew better than any of us how that world was beautifully conceived for human existence. There is something about living that makes dying seem outrageous to most of us when we are not suffering a long and terrible old age or death. Suffering is not good. It is said that Jesus sweat as he did not for personal fear but for spiritual anguish.He dreaded the reproach that his father would suffer as he, God's son, was charged with blasphemy. There seemed no obvious good that would result from such an end to his life.

MadJ , Careful, please to criticize talking to 'those who left the true God". You are talking to 'those who left the true God' after all. What difference is there in you and mindmelda in this? For the purpose of searching for what is true, for the good of knowing and learning from others and thus benefiting ourself and another--we talk. Don't we?

Even if one does not fear death because of faith in the resurrection, no one wants to squander the moment of life we have. We don't want to miss life's purpose.

We all worry that we might spend our life on a worthless venture an empty promise or a mistaken idea. For Abraham and Isaac to go through what they did is truly wonderful.

I was not allowe to speak to other Witnesses about this.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Nice to come home to the conversation. Some interesting thoughts here.

Looking over the past posts it is evident that none of Abraham's test conforms to a religious organization's check list: True faith is demonstrated by an ignorant old listener and his son who had no doctrinal training; delightful union appears in the shared solitude of faith; Abraham's stunning faith was in giving the son that he didn't kill became Jehovah showing how much He loved the worldwhen He gave His only begotten son. And not inconsequentially, there is this paradox in understanding what we read in the scriptures: being too literal in translating is as big a problem as being dismissive of critical differences between Hebrew language/thought and English language/thought. That point is absolutely why olah and zebach should be carefully guarded from casual interchange with "sacrifice".

Following the thread of the language connection was important to me a long time ago too. I found that ee often use the English word "sacrifice" in a way that the Hebrew does not. We use it in a way that the Greek does not. The words were so specific to the occasion of ritual slaughter that we must read the accounts concerning Jehovah and Abraham--and Jephthah with special care. Even when Jesus is referred to as being a sacrifice it is never suggested that he is slaughtered at the hand of his father any more than Job is injured by Jehovah. Both are given over to the heavy hand of the world and the evil one. Isaac and any of us who would follow his and Jesus' example must know that obedience unto death is the extent of the trust we must have even if we cannot see a ram in the thicket.

I actually find it dignifying to the poor that they (we?) each have a life to give. Anfd so Romans 12:1 has it --And worship him, I beg you, in a way that is worthy of thinking beings, by offering your living bodies as a holy sacrifice, truly pleasing to God.

78

Respectable People in Hell - A "How To" Guide

by Perry in

disable fear of god.

now if any man have not the spirit of christ, he is none of his.

not a captive

Fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom. Only love endures.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

One point that rises from Abraham's test that will not find its way to a JW publication is whether or not faith is a solitary venture. It may find delightful union in the company of other faithful individuals. But even if one's companions do not accompany you, you go on. Alone if necessary.

Jesus answered his Father's call to offer himself without any understanding or support from his disciples: "Listen; the time will come--in fact it has come already--when you will be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me."

If Genesis 22 is quit a bit about listening to Jehovah's voice as many of us believe, doesn't that challenge exclude having that voice filtered by any religious body?

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

By the time I have pecked out a response something has already appeared. I am doomed to making non-sequiturs!

Dear friends, it is so good to hear someone say these things. I too, love that Jesus gave himself as much as his father gave him up: "The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own free will, and as it is in my power to lay it down, so it is in my power to take it up again; and this is the command I have been given by my Father." John 10:17,18

I would call you sisters now. But I believe that I am three hairs short of a Baboon and don't know if you would claim the relation.

You know, I think that it is true that literalism corrupts the meaning too. The word in Hebrew for Burnt offering means ascent , smoke , go up. Holocaust. It is poetry, it is spiritual. It is not used interchangably with zebach/sacrifice. There existed no word equivalent to what Jehovah was asking until its was defined in the perfect (yet ignorant) obedience of Abraham.

By the time Jephthah rolled around "burnt offering" had been well defined by Abraham and Isaac's example.

The word "love " was likewise re-defined by Jesus:" Love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples."

It is way past my bedtime, but this is the best Sunday I've had in well over a year.

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

The Sudan, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, Iraq. There are violent "Bronze Age" times even now and in more places than I have named. As for the violence of the Bronze age --what of it? Did life cease? It did not. Did farming cease? It did not. Yes, people lived in walled towns and cities and shut the city gate at night. Yes, the life of Abraham it is punctuated by some violent moments. But the old man lived a life that had a great deal more of unrelenting heat, dirt and family squabbles than battles. Maybe there is a side discussion here that I didn't understand.

The point I hoped to make earlier is only that Abraham did a wonderful thing in the response he made to God. But it was God who clarified the the kind of offering that he wanted and the kind of God he was by stopping the killing. He helped Abraham know that a burnt offering of a human as not of the dead. But it is a holy, living "sacrifice" with it's power of reason. Later on Jesus would come into a troubled time also--notwithstanding the civilizing influence of Roman rule and he had to deal with listening to his Father in a completely hostile environment --a religious one.

I love it. Three hairs from a baboon.

Are you sure you don't know my family, mindmelda?

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Sorry I missed your post, mindmelda. I had two hungry sons come a knockin' at my door.

I do think the greater point is listening to Jehovah. But that doesn't let him off the hook that he put himself on by stating so often his HATRED of child sacrifice. As Jesus says: the scriptures can't be broken. Also, God is unchangable. He doesn't lie . And James says he tries no one with evil. But if God gave the command to kill Isaac then how do we find the perfect parallel in the Ransom of Jesus if the test involves not giving his only begotten son but killing him?

MadJ, I will look for that film.You see stong elements of this topic in it? It is amazing to think you would discuss this and converse as you do. I tell you that I had to leave the congregation to be free to talk about this--How is it that you do talk to "apostates"? As others note, it is healthy in the view of many but there is no denying that you are in violation of the rules. I say this not in a critical spirit but with great curiousity.

It's been a pleasure and a relief to swap thoughts on this topic. It has occupied my spiritual life for longer than I was a JW. It helped me through times of ignorance and darkness. It helped me know that I didn't have to have perfect understanding to be perfectly obedient and know that Jehovah has the power to prevent me from making a fatal mistake as I try to do his will--as long as it is HIS voice I listen to.

Good night all. Work tomorrow. I'll check the posts to see what's cooking. Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

The opinion of others is of interest if we want to dialog with them; hats off to Jehovah for even trying to talk to us.

Which is very much to the point of this discussion topic.

Abraham was surrounded by peoples that engaged in child sacrifice (even if there is some dispute among scholars as to what extent it went on). But without doubt animal sacrifice was the norm. So the Maker of heaven and earth tries to teach his ways tin a world of slaughter, rape and pillage. He may make allowances for us "knowing we are dust"---but he nevertheless calls us to a higher consciousness.

We actually do have some idea of what they used to go through each day. There have been plenty of peoples who have lived this way up to the present times in the very lands that Abraham lived in. And--crazy as it may seem--my husband and I traveled from NW Arkansas for a three year sojourn outside North Platte, Nebraska in the spring of 1981--in a covered wagon. We had three young children and a dog (the cat skipped out on us) and twelve head of horses. My married life from time to time included electricity--but sometimes not. Without doubt the loss of plumbing I missed the most. We butchered our own meat and on occasion I gave birth at home without these conveniences. We eventually had 7 children together. But the point that was important to me when I first picked up a Bible (miracle #1, as I was a cradle Catholic) was this: even in straightened , challenging physical circumstances the principles of personal conduct do not change in God's economy. Or I was doomed. We had events that involved physical aggression, frightful violent neighbors.Gunshots even. We didn't have this during all our days by any means--and such is not the norm for most peoples. Though we all know of many Christians who are undeterred even by war in their own lands.

No, the tedium and the drudgery of "rustic living" definitely limit free time but I cannot see that it alone is a deterent to knowing God as he is. On the contrary. When I think of how set upon we are by the tentacles of money-woes and our technological dependence, these things make God seem less accessible--not more so.

I apologize for the long post and the personal details butI cannot find rough living an acceptable reason for Jehovah to violate his own character and so stoop to the level of the surrounding nations by saying "kill Isaac". If he had so condescended to the prevailing opinion of worship then how could Genesis 22 have achieved the perfect parallel in Jesus' Ransom as it eventually did?

Maeve

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

not a captive

Oops--- can't find youtube vid. Probably inappropriate to the discussion--at least in tone. But suffice to say it reflects the universal disgust that many have for a God's who required the slaughter of a man's child as a test of faith.